Notes from an on-site: Never say die!

[Rob] (0:00 - 0:12)

In customer success, a lot of us could stand to have a never say die attitude, where we are like our counterparts in sales, where I gave an example where I literally drove three hours to get a meeting with a customer.

[Dillon] (0:19 - 0:19)

Ready?

[JP] (0:20 - 0:20)

Yep.

[Dillon] (0:23 - 0:34)

What's up, lifers, and welcome to The Daily Standup with Lifetime Value, where we're giving you fresh new customer success ideas every single day.

I got my man JP here. JP, do you want to say hi?

[JP] (0:34 - 0:35)

What's going on, y'all?

[Dillon] (0:36 - 0:40)

And we've got Rob with us. Rob, do you want to say hi?

[Rob] (0:40 - 0:41)

As-salamu alaykum, lifers.

[Dillon] (0:45 - 1:35)

And I am your host. And shalom. My name is Dillon Young, and I don't know if you can tell, guys, but we are in person, live and in person, coming to you from Rob's home sweet home.

Beep, beep, beep. The crib. All identifying information has been concealed so that the...

Not my plastic plant. The rabid fans cannot find where Mr. Rob's ambidextrous. Daddy's little meatball, if you could see his shirt, says...

And once again, we're here because we have just wrapped up the Customer Success Collective's CS Festival here in Boston. We're doing a recap of the coolest, most interesting, most thought-provoking topics or conversations we had at the festival. And JP, I think you've got one for us this time.

[JP] (1:35 - 2:09)

Yeah, yeah. Maybe a few. I got a few, actually, that were really either like...

It could be eye-opening or affirming. You know, I'm still relatively new in the space. So sometimes it's just good to see affirming things because I haven't been in the space as long.

So hearing those affirming things can be really great for, you know, things that I think I should be pushing myself maybe more on. So I'll say that one of them, and I'm sort of going to say it the way I wrote it, but I think there's more to...

[Dillon] (2:09 - 2:09)

Caveatting it.

[JP] (2:09 - 4:02)

Yeah, the caveat. So be annoying and hound executives. That's why they have executive assistants.

That's what I wrote. But I think that on this topic, and I think that I've actually had a couple conversations with people about this, it's really about ownership. It's about driving accounts.

It's about the idea that when you take ownership of something, we've all had that experience where if you have to call into some sort of office and you have no other choice, and you you may have to call them multiple times. I've definitely called places where I've waited for like 40 minutes, and then the phone hung up on me. And of course, I wanted to be like, oh, screw these people.

But I had to call them back. I had to get this thing done. There was no other option.

And to me, I think about what can make me a better CSM, and I think it's to be more annoying. Because I think some of us, I think that the annoying thing maybe becomes more natural to sales in terms of they're not, they're going to take more of that initiative. And I think like in CS, we could definitely stand, and I mean, I'll speak for myself, maybe some people that are more seasoned, they get it.

But I think for me, it's, you know, I'm just gonna just take more initiative and just be someone who, you know, will reach out. Of course, still with value, like not just reach out to reach out. But that when I need to speak to someone to get something done, it's to do, it's not, it shouldn't get to a point where when my manager comes to me, and then it's like, hey, what's going on with this?

I'm like, oh.

[Dillon] (4:02 - 4:03)

Because it's stalled out.

[JP] (4:03 - 4:03)

Right.

[Dillon] (4:04 - 4:44)

Yep. I think I call that being a bulldog. Right?

Like, you can call it whatever. I think ownership is probably healthier, sexier. I just call it being a bulldog.

Right? And I think sales does it really good because they follow money. Right.

If they think there's an opportunity there, they're going to get it done. I think on the flip side, CS struggles with it, perhaps because we're too empathetic. We feel too much.

We don't want to get in the other person's way. We want to be helpful. We don't want to take their time.

And I think to the point of what that person was saying is they have EAs for a reason. It's like, well, that person has somebody who's managing their time for them.

[JP] (4:44 - 4:44)

Right.

[Dillon] (4:44 - 4:52)

So don't worry about that. And you've got to think you've got to get done. And in many cases, it is driving that forward provides value to that customer.

[JP] (4:52 - 4:53)

Yeah.

[Dillon] (4:53 - 5:03)

That they just haven't connected those dots or they're super busy. It's not even like they're trying to ignore you. Just like they weren't trying to hang up on you.

Their phone system just sucked sort of thing. But Rob, what do you think about it?

[Rob] (5:03 - 5:17)

Yeah. I mean, this drives me crazy. I think the way this came up in a somewhat controversial way was interesting.

I think my friend, Ashley, she mentioned, sometimes you should just put a meeting on the calendar. And this is controversial. Just put a meeting on.

[Dillon] (5:17 - 5:18)

I didn't like this. I didn't like this.

[Rob] (5:18 - 5:53)

I know you didn't like this. Now, I don't like this either. I especially don't like this when I'm on the receiving end.

But it's just to stretch your minds for a second. Like the advice was consider just putting a meeting on the calendar with your client and just see if they show up. And I was talking to somebody after he was like, you know, I've done this 100 times.

And the one or two times that it's worked out, somebody actually showed up. Or they said, oh, hey, look, I haven't been meaning to ignore you. I actually do want to meet with you.

But this time I'll work. And I was like, OK, that's cool. So the point is, like, I don't stand by that advice.

[Dillon] (5:54 - 5:57)

Because what happens the other 98 times?

[Rob] (5:57 - 5:58)

You're wasting your time.

[Dillon] (5:58 - 5:59)

I don't think that's it.

[Rob] (6:00 - 6:00)

Yeah.

[Dillon] (6:00 - 6:20)

I don't think it's a neutral result. Actually true. Yeah.

I don't think there is actually net negative. I think it is always it sits on one or other the other side of the fence. It's either positive in so much as they say, like, oh, I wasn't trying to ignore you.

And thank you so much for being persistent. But much more often. Right.

I think it has a negative. Yeah.

[JP] (6:20 - 6:29)

So then should we maybe wait to do it when there's nothing to lose? If you've been trying to reach out to somebody and maybe that's where the last resort. Not a.

[Dillon] (6:30 - 6:35)

Yeah. I think there's so many creative solutions, though, that there's very rarely a last result.

[Rob] (6:36 - 7:43)

The the to me, it's not the tactic, it's the principle. Right. The principle is.

In customer success, a lot of us could stand to have a never say die attitude where we are like our counterparts in sales, where I gave an example where I literally drove three hours to get a meeting with a customer, three hours to get a meeting with a customer. And they didn't know that they didn't even expect me. I think I sent them an email beforehand, like, hey, I'm going to be in the area.

I was not going to be in the area, but I did it. Well, you were only for them. We did end up closing that deal and retaining that deal.

And a large part of it was because we actually showed up in person. And I'm not like I know these are extreme examples. This is not what I'm recommending.

In fact, I mentioned I have this like whole non responsive customer playbook that you can use that kind of graduates to this phase. But we're talking like last resorts here where you have nothing to lose. I do think CS could stand to be more assertive or someone described it as aggressive.

I don't think of it as aggressive. That's too much. So if it was me, I apologize.

[JP] (7:44 - 7:45)

No, no, no. No, it was not you.

[Rob] (7:46 - 7:52)

Anyway, more assertive with getting on our customers calendars.

[JP] (7:53 - 7:56)

Do we have time for one more? Let me see if I got it.

[Dillon] (7:56 - 7:59)

Well, I just wonder if you have anything to retort to that or.

[JP] (8:01 - 8:36)

Well, I do have something that I do think is in general hot take it. So that that I share was more just like, hey, I can stand to be this. But I was just right.

But something that shifted my perspective. Y'all gonna love this. Micro management may not be bad in the beginning.

As a way to help drive a new behavior. So I'll just say that maybe in a previous role, there was a competition.

[Dillon] (8:37 - 8:37)

Unconfirmed.

[JP] (8:37 - 9:44)

There was a competition for like CS referrals or CS qualified leads. Yeah. Right.

So this is a competition. But what may happen is, OK, so that was incentivized. But then that may now become baked in so that it actually becomes a KPI.

So at first it's like, hey, if you do this, you get a little extra. Then it's going to become something that's in. So like the contest is not micromanaging.

However, if you are trying to drive a specific thing among your CSM, so not micromanaging for the hell of it as if we're going to do everything, but micromanaging in the beginning because it's like, hey, it looks like as a team, this is a specific area that we could really get better in. And so you focus on that because there is a need for it because you're trying to drive that. I think that that's like the one instance for me where I can think that micromanagement may be actually like a good thing as typically like I don't think of it as a good thing at all.

[Dillon] (9:47 - 9:53)

And you do mean micromanagement specifically as like they're checking in on what you're doing.

[JP] (9:53 - 9:54)

Right.

[Dillon] (9:54 - 10:11)

Every day, if not multiple times a day, making sure that. Yeah, maybe I'm thinking of like the worst. No, yeah, that's this, but they're they're making sure they're minding your P's and Q's for you sort of thing.

[JP] (10:11 - 10:29)

Not mod. OK, so there's a difference not monitoring me, but I'm thinking about micromanage in terms of like the micro is where we're managing this specific behavior. So not micro outcome.

Right. OK, right.

[Dillon] (10:30 - 10:34)

OK. Rob, what do you think about that?

[Rob] (10:35 - 10:39)

You know, it's interesting because we're talking about in the context of new employee onboarding, right?

[JP] (10:40 - 10:44)

I think in that, too. That's why I said in the beginning it is more in the beginning. Sorry for.

[Rob] (10:45 - 10:51)

Yeah, I think, well, when a lot of us think about this, we think about like boiler room type sales environments.

[JP] (10:51 - 10:51)

Yeah.

[Rob] (10:51 - 11:12)

Where it's like, you know, people start on day one and it's like you're going to make 70 dials per day or something like that. I actually think that the interesting thing that happens in cultures like those is even though it sucks to start, people do develop an affinity for that behavior and appreciation of that behavior after a certain period of time.

[JP] (11:13 - 11:13)

Right.

[Rob] (11:13 - 11:38)

Like I've heard the phrase embrace the suck before, which I think is like kind of cheesy and stupid. But at the same time, I also get why that works. It's almost like the same reason pledging a fraternity or sorority is like sticky in people's heads and they learn to appreciate certain or it's the reason why I like me washing dishes when I was a teenager made me appreciate that activity so much more for recruits.

[Dillon] (11:39 - 11:44)

Look back fondly on their time in boot camp. Yeah, right. They're real instructors.

[Rob] (11:44 - 12:19)

Yeah. So this this isn't to I'm not saying that it's a good thing. I'm just saying it is an effect that happens.

It's a thing. It's a thing. So I think most of it boils down to expectation setting.

I think if imagine you start a job and on after one week on the job, your manager says, all right, you're going to make 40 dials for references. You're like, are you serious? I didn't think I signed up for this.

But if you heard that in the interview process, then you signed up for it. You're like, all right, cool. I can I can just power through that.

And I know that it's not the long term state of the business.

[JP] (12:20 - 12:34)

That's a good caveat. By the way, it's not because I did have that happen to me at a previous place, seriously, where they turned it into a sales like they were like, yeah, we need to make this many cold calls in a day.

[Dillon] (12:35 - 14:04)

And it's so easy to say like, oh, this isn't what I signed up for. I think it might be important to turn an empathetic eye towards the way in which our customers experience this when trying to go on board our solutions. It's just another version of change management.

Like your company needs to evolve. They're trying to find new solutions. And one of those happens to be a new motion that you're now going to be responsible for.

It's no and I've done this a million times in your same shoes where I make a stink about it. And wouldn't you know, in three months, I'm looking for a new job because I wasn't down for the I didn't I was in it for me and not for the larger collective good, which was trying to move the company forward. And I think both of those are fine.

But you've when you're when it's all about you, you've got to be prepared for or how your company makes decisions based on that. I just personally had a breakthrough in explaining. There you go.

Firing that therapist, which is all this is, guys. This is a huge, convoluted therapy session for me. That's our time.

Thanks again to Customer Success Collective for putting on such an awesome event. We're going to have more of these episodes in the future, but I've got to say goodbye for now.

[Voiceover] (14:05 - 14:42)

You've been listening to The Daily Standup by Lifetime Value. Please note that the views expressed in these conversations are attributed only to those individuals on this recording and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of their respective employers. For all inquiries, please reach out via email to Dillon at LifetimeValueMedia.com.

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