FROM THE HOTLINE: Stand on business with your customers

[Kristi] (0:00 - 0:09)

My Botox has prevented me from squinting, but I would squish all of my face together and suggest that. I don't know that I agree.

[Voiceover] (0:11 - 0:44)

Good morning, good afternoon and good evening to all you customer success professionals. We are back with another episode of the CES Hotline, where we're answering your burning questions about the customer success profession, hosted by the effervescent Kristi Faltorusso and one of one personality, Stino Smet. Give them your best shot and they'll give it to you straight while having a good time along the way.

Now, here's the show.

[Stino] (1:04 - 1:16)

Hi everyone, and welcome back at a new episode of the Customer Success Hotline. It's the third episode and I'm still here with my bestie co-host, Kristi. Hi Kristi.

[Kristi] (1:16 - 1:58)

Hi Stino. We are here to get into so much goodness. If folks have not gone and listened to our first two episodes, we have covered so many cool topics.

We talked about how to build and forge relationships with executives when somebody transitions out of the business. We talked about managing expectations with leadership, which I think we came to a pretty solid conclusion at the end of that episode. So if you have not gone and listened to those two episodes, I highly encourage you to go listen to them.

We think we answered the questions. I'm confident that we, if not, got super close, but they were really interesting and had lots of information. So if you have not gone and listened to our first two episodes, please go ahead and check those out.

Stino, what are we talking about today?

[Stino] (1:59 - 3:52)

Well, as we decided, we're just like taking one question each episode because we want to be like, one, because we're very chatty and two, we want to be very mindful, very demure, not like those other girls. Those were not very cutesy. Anyway, today's question is from MyCSM, one of the tools that I'm using, which I thought was super mindful and super cutesy and her question, so bear with me.

It's a long one. I'm always having issues with the type of customer, funnily enough, with the one that is considered the best customer. So basically the one that has everything already built, that knows what to do and the customer that I use as an example for other of my customers to how to use our product, like literally the ideal customer.

So sometimes that ideal customer comes to me and asks for my help, my advice, some best practices or anything, and I'm lost because everything is perfectly done on his or her ends. So what to do? I'm always lost when they ask me what to improve.

And I feel like I'm disappointing them when I tell them that they have everything perfectly set up and there is nothing to change, nothing to recommend. Like how do you handle such a situation? It's basically telling like the value that we promised you at the very beginning, like you got it, like it's done.

Like, is it okay not to say like you've reached the maximum return on investment that you can have in a product? Or is that not done? Like, I would dare to say like, you're there.

It's good. You're there. Keep on pushing.

But I see on your, like at your face that, like I would.

[Kristi] (3:53 - 4:01)

My Botox has prevented me from squinting, but I would squish all of my face together and suggest that, I don't know that I agree.

[Stino] (4:02 - 4:49)

No, sometimes I'm like, if I'm thinking about a STEM point of view of will, like if the goals are hit, like if they're content, if, if it's a question on how to do something and a problem come to it, like 100%, then you're not needed to say like, you've reached a value, you be on your sweet little way. But if it's like the question, like the question is like, can I do something better and you're doing everything perfectly fine, like I think it's super okay to say like, you are the best of the best, this is how the product should be used. Like, if I'm thinking from a will perspective, I think I could perfectly do that.

But again, the Botox is, I don't want to ruin your Botox. So what is your take on it?

[Kristi] (4:50 - 7:21)

Okay. So we're going to have to lead in with a disclaimer on every single episode we have. So, you know, I think it's important.

It depends. So that is the, the universal disclaimer for every episode. So anything we say can and cannot be used against us in the court of customer success law.

It depends. Everything is different. But here's what I'm going to say.

If you're not in a, if you're not working for a company where you've got like this one to many, like if you're not a scale CSM or you've got 500 customers, if in that case, if you have a customer who's like perfect, then just keep it moving. Yeah. Like go work on the customers that need your attention, that aren't doing it well.

I absolutely agree that that could be an appropriate response and a way to engage. But here's the thing. There is value beyond your product.

There is value in the partnership. And I feel like as CSM, sometimes we lose sight of that. So for example, there is tons of customers that I engage with regularly and our conversations are product agnostic.

We don't even talk about the solution. We talk about strategy. We talk about challenges that they're navigating.

We talk about changes in the industry, changes in the market. We talk about their customers, right? We, there are so many conversations that you could be having that bring value to the partnership.

And I think a great CSM will anchor on those. In fact, I created a long time ago, I think many, many companies ago, I used to create these like buffets, we'll call it like a list of like, here's 20 different things that you can bring to a conversation with a customer, right? You could go and maybe you're having conversations about a recent funding that they got.

I love this one because guess what? If my customer got a round of funding, my conversation isn't congratulations. That's so exciting.

And then keep it moving. How are you guys investing that money? What are your plans?

How does this change your business? Are you thinking about M&A? Are you hiring?

Are you like a great CSM is using all of the information that they have to strengthen their partnership and the dialogues that they're having. So even if your customer is maximizing the value from the product and they have optimized it, which I will challenge you to suggest that if your product is innovating and changing, that they have not done everything, but let's assume that that is the case. Okay, fine.

There are other things that you should be talking about. There should be other use cases. There should be other parts of the partnership that you're leaning into.

And great CSMs know how to do that and know how to do that well.

[Stino] (7:23 - 7:59)

True, true. I feel that this is the episode that it's like an agree to disagree one, because it's also, it leans, wouldn't it be like super creepy or super too direct also depending on your relationship? It depends.

I know. But like, if you see like they raised some money or like they're doing all this amazing stuff as a business, like sometimes I feel a little bit out of place saying like, Hey, what are you doing? Are you hiring more?

Are you like growing the business? Are you branching out? Like all of that stuff.

I know those are personal questions and I see your personal questions.

[Kristi] (7:59 - 10:05)

Those are business questions. Those are biz and we are in a business relationship. We are not, you are not like my buddy.

This isn't a little kiki. This is like, you're a business. We're a business.

We are partners. We are in a commercial relationship. If your business does well, there is opportunity for my business to do well.

So if you're getting funding, I want to know what are your plans? And I don't think that's a personal question. I think that is a business question.

That is like, how are you all planning to invest that? Well, first congratulations, right? This is wonderful.

What, why are you guys taking this round? What do you intend to do with it? Is it around product innovation?

Is it MNA? Is it hiring? Yeah.

Listen, how you ask these questions I think is the difference. I'm obviously being very direct and just shooting out the questions here, but this is a dialogue that you should be comfortable having. And this is what I'm saying.

Like a great CSM leans into the partnership, not just the product. And those are the types of things like here's, here's a great points. You know, client success.

We are basically a license-based model, right? So the more CSMs you have, the more of our product you consume, which is great. If my customer gets around a $50 million, I want to know, do you have plans to hire?

Because that helps me understand what our growth strategy is. Then guess what? I want to make sure that they are getting so much value that adding licenses is a no brainer, right?

Or that we are priced at a place that they feel comfortable growing with us. So then it helps me lean in more thoughtfully to the partnership because again, it's a two way street. If they're doing well, I can benefit, but only if I'm holding up my end of the bargain.

So that's why these types of conversations are critical. And I think that CSMs that steer away from it because it feels uncomfortable or it feels too direct. And listen, it could also be a cultural thing, right?

I am from New York, but I think that you've got to lean into those things because those are the questions going back to our last episode of setting expectations, not managing to them. This helps you do that because you can actually bring to your leadership team these additional insights.

[Stino] (10:06 - 10:43)

Yeah, no, 100%. And the reason why I said like agree to disagree was indeed like the, the, the way on asking questions, like I'm not as direct as you, like I, like I'm a little bit more flexible. So indeed, like asking those questions or getting those answers to those questions, 100%, like how you pose those questions completely up to you.

Like you need to be authentically yourself 100% when asking, like I'm all here for like following your customers on LinkedIn celebration, celebrating everything that they like, if they grow, if they hire, if they open up, open up a new branch, like, of course you want to know the gist of it, but indeed, like how to ask the question.

[Kristi] (10:44 - 12:30)

Listen, I'm not attacking them with questions, but I am like, listen, if you have a good rapport, again, if you're leaning into it softly, you might say, Mary, congratulations. I just saw on LinkedIn that you guys raised a huge round. That's so exciting.

I didn't know that you guys were working on that. Or if you did know, and you should have known that they were working on it. That's so exciting to see that come to a close.

Oh gosh, you must be so relieved. All that work is behind you. And then you're leaning into a friendly banter and then saying like, that's so exciting.

What are, have you guys thought about how you're going to invest that back into the business? What are your plans for that? And then sit back and let them speak.

Now, listen, again, if you're having a conversation with an individual contributor, who is a hundred layers below leadership, they might be like, gosh, I have no idea. Maybe I should be asking that, right? They might not have an answer for you and that's okay.

But the idea here is that going back to the question that your CSM post is, how do you continue to bring value to the conversation? It's just by using the opportunity that you have to have a dialogue that goes beyond that, because everything can and should come back to the product and to the partnership, but these, these different pathways to having appropriate discussions could actually lead you into uncovering new opportunities. Because Sino, if you just raised, if Whale just raised a hundred million dollars, guess what, your CSM, well, I didn't say you raised a hundred million.

You didn't win the lotto in this scenario. You just, now you have more work to do. That's what I gave you.

I didn't give you money. I gave you more work. So now from their standpoint, it's important because your use cases might evolve, right?

Like now you're at a point of scale. How is that going to change your strategy? So that's why all of these things are important because you can bring it all back to the product.

And that's why it's important to have dialogue that goes beyond it.

[Stino] (12:30 - 12:51)

I can totally follow up on that, especially if you're like maxing the value out of the product. But let's switch it up. And if your customer is maximizing everything out of the product, but comes with, and I thought it was you that said it on TikTok the other day with the feared word feature request.

[Kristi] (12:52 - 12:57)

Oh, yeah. It's a dirty word. Dirty word.

That was a TikTok I did, yes.

[Stino] (12:57 - 13:18)

But like how, like everything the customer is like spewing, spewing out to you and be like, okay, we do this. I have this idea. Like I have sometimes the same, like I get tired of saying like, we will be looking into that without using the word feature request because sometimes, okay, it is a feature request, but like you said on TikTok.

[Kristi] (13:18 - 13:21)

It's a feature idea. It's a feature idea. They are not requesting it.

[Stino] (13:21 - 13:21)

It's an idea.

[Kristi] (13:21 - 13:28)

They are sharing their idea. We have to unpack what kind of level of priority it is for the partnership.

[Stino] (13:29 - 14:35)

To do the request. But like, I can understand the person that asked the question 100% if you keep on getting, if you keep on saying the same thing, like, thank you so much for this idea, we will take it to the product team, thank you so much for this idea, because at the end of the day, like that part isn't driving value for your partnership, the product is, but the relationship becomes like under pressure because like you said, it's like you need to leverage both, not only the value of the product, but also the value of your relationship. Like, how will you handle that?

Because to be honest, I've, I'm stuck with that as well. Like I have a couple of customers where I'm tired just saying like, good. Yeah.

Good idea. Good idea. Good, good idea.

But these are the metrics you're using. We'll super good. Like, this is the money you save.

Good idea. Like I'm stuck as well. Like I've tried various things, but like every time they come back with a new idea, I need to have a new approach.

Like there isn't an approach that you can like use over, over and over again. Like I'm, I'm ran out of ideas. Like please send me, teach me.

[Kristi] (14:36 - 18:49)

So on our last episode, we talked about being proactive, right? Just like how you lean into different partnerships and especially with leadership. So in this case, what I love to do is make sure that my customers are very clear on our vision and our strategy and to the extent that I can share thematically our roadmap.

And so what this enables me to do is back into, that's a wonderful idea. I know that we talked about some other ideas that you've had in the previous sessions that we've had together. However, as I shared with you, right, this is our product strategy and this is the vision and the direction that we're going.

And here's where we're making these investments. So I, as your CSM, I'm going to keep continuing to add these to our log and as it's appropriate and product sees that there is alignment here, we'll get those added, right? But right now I do want to just be super transparent that this is the direction we're heading.

And a lot of the things that you're recommending, they're great. They're valid. And I understand your use cases.

I don't know how soon we'd be able to get those into the queue. And so I want you to feel comfortable continuing to bring your great ideas to the table because this is how we get better. But I also want to be transparent with you in making sure that you know the direction that we're headed as a vendor, right?

And so like, I think it's a little bit of like, how do you set expectations back with them? The more proactive I am with helping my customers understand the direction we're going in as a business, I can't always use that as a mechanism to control the conversation and say, listen, I showed you we're going, we're going a, B and C and you're recommending X, Y, and Z. So while I love these ideas, they're just not aligned with the direction that we're going.

Now, here's the thing. And this is why I go, this is so super important. I talked about this in my TikTok.

You have to understand though, the impact of those ideas on their business. Now, if your customer is saying, Oh my gosh, you know what? That purple button would be killer if it was yellow.

Said no one ever, but let's just say that they want the button. Like that is cool, Bob. I really appreciate that.

Like, yes, I know you love yellow, but like that's okay. You can keep the purple button. Like we move on.

Like, okay. It is not prohibitive. Right now, if your customer comes to you and tells you, you don't have an integration or a way for me to ingest my data from my CRM, let's just say, and that is mission critical for them to use your technology, that is prohibitive.

That is a blocker. That customer will churn. Your job as the CSM is to understand the impact of their business, get an understanding of the use cases, get all the details, and then bring that back to product.

And your job as a CSM is to manage that up with your leadership team who is actively meeting with the product team so that they can consider where that gets landed. So the thing is your customers are always going to have ideas. They will never have a shortage of ideas, especially if they're using your product.

They're in there all day, every day. They know the best and worst of your product intimately. And they're always thinking about their workflows and their use cases.

And listen, I use my own product every day. I, I probably have more feature ideas than anybody. So I get that.

But at the end of the day, if it's not prohibitive or if it doesn't increase value so significantly, you have to manage those expectations. And so I think that's the difference between what is the conversation you're having. Obviously you don't want to just tell them every time.

Oh, great idea. And then keep it moving, dig into it, do that discovery, understand the impact, and then have also, I recommend the business conversation of if I build that, what commitment are you making to the partnership? Because I'll tell you that has gotten me in a lot of trouble.

I've built a lot of tech only to have customers churn. And then a flip side, if we don't build that, is this, is that detrimental to our partnership? I need to understand that, right?

Are you going to leave us if that is not something you have? And I need to understand that in a very real way. And I don't want people calling bullshit on this.

Like, I don't want people bluffing, but like, if that is prohibitive and you cannot use our solution and all the 18,000 workarounds I gave you, if you can't do what you need to do, what's the impact? I need to understand that too. And like, this goes back to just having the tough conversations with our customers.

[Stino] (18:49 - 18:55)

Because sometimes you don't hear them anymore. They're like, Oh, well, Well, that's the other thing.

[Kristi] (18:55 - 19:04)

It's like you, you risk it because your customers might stop sharing ideas and feedback because they know that your response is cool. Thanks. That's great.

[Stino] (19:05 - 20:54)

Like the thing is what I've been testing out and I can't say yet if it's working or not, but it leans into the more working and, and, and, and not the non-working way. It's like partnering up with product. What we've done is just having this in like huge feedback call where we can just invite any customer and like drop their product ideas.

Because in that way, we're still a small startup. Like I can't say like for like, like the company like Client Success, like, yeah. Like completely depends, but like the startup that we are at Whale, like it still would be able to work.

Like, because our CPO, like we're a small team, right? Like, and that is super fun to do 30 minutes. And instead of me doing the discovery, it's my CPO that does the discovery.

And that is really, it's a fun way because I don't put my relationship online. My clients can directly talk with the one that is like the building, the strategy for the product. So it's a cool idea and it seems to be working.

We'll give you that. So if you're working on a small company or medium-sized company and you have the bandwidth to do so, like definitely try it out because it's been the most fun for the customers that are like at max volume and be given a direct line to product leadership. Because indeed, like you said, no one wants to hear, oh my God, this is so good.

Like, bravo to you. You're one of our top customers. Like if you give them another direction, then give them a way to play with the big league and be like, okay, this is our CPO.

Like let's go over feedback that you want. Like that will be also super fun. Like it is super fun for us, but I can't imagine that for someone with client success that you don't want to hop on a call with the CPO.

[Kristi] (20:54 - 22:22)

Well, actually, I will say our product leader is probably the most engaged product leader I've ever worked with in my professional career, speaks to our customers all the time. But here's what I would say to your point, because I love that idea. And I think leaning into your customers is, it's a game changer for the partnership.

I do really think that there's a huge benefit to it. My recommendation and almost not a recommendation, my, I am telling you all lean into the right partnerships. Make sure that the customers that you're building for are part of your ICP, because I've also seen that backfire where you're inviting the wrong customers.

Like, listen, if you're a company and you know that you have strong use cases for like healthcare and finance, don't take your ed tech customer and start building product for them if that's not the route you're going. So lean into the right customers, right? Think about who you're inviting to those conversations, because if that dialogue is feeding your future and feeding your roadmap, you better believe that it is so important that you have the right conversations with the right people at the right companies that are participating in that.

So that would be my only caveat to that. It's easy to say, Hey, you're a great customer. You're getting a lot of value.

I'm going to invite you to this conversation. But if you're not built, if that's not your ICP, if they're an SMB company and you're building enterprise software, do not invite them. It's not the right motion for the business.

[Stino] (22:24 - 22:26)

True. No, true. Like, sorry.

[Kristi] (22:27 - 22:51)

Yeah. And then like, because I know that you want to do that. You want to invite all these customers, but here's the thing.

At the end of the day, if that customer is getting maximum value and that is your, your additional way to like build them into the partnership is invite them to that conversation. But if they are not the right ICP, it doesn't make sense to do that either. You know?

So you just got to be thoughtful about who you're building for in that case.

[Stino] (22:51 - 22:56)

True. But also it depends. Like it always comes back.

[Kristi] (22:56 - 23:01)

Don't build for the wrong customer. What are we, we can't just be here to, okay.

[Stino] (23:01 - 23:02)

What are you saying?

[Kristi] (23:02 - 23:03)

Sino, tell me.

[Stino] (23:03 - 23:22)

But if, but if you are still at a, like a startup, like, to be honest, we're not struggling to find our ICP. Like now that feedback is 100% valid. Like I would say to our product team as well, like let's build for our ICP.

Well, three years ago when I first started, I and Will were like one year in. And, and Will was one year in.

[Kristi] (23:22 - 24:05)

If you're a baby company, like if you're early in your company's journey, lean into all the customer feedback. Yes, I agree with that. But when you get to a place, when you know who you're building for, that is where you have to be more thoughtful because I have seen that go terribly wrong.

And then what happens is, is you're inviting customers to be part of these conversations. They think you're going to build something for or with them. And then you don't.

And then they're wondering, why did I just waste all my time? Why did I get on these calls? That's the other thing, right?

So you risk, it actually, you put the partnership at greater risk by thinking you're doing something helpful because it backfires because you're like, oh, sorry, you know, it's tough.

[Stino] (24:08 - 24:36)

Um, but I think all in all, if you have such a perfect customer, you shouldn't be disappointed. Like there are always ways to feel that, like feel them valued. And that is neat.

Like you said, in the beginning of this episode is more that relationship. Don't forget about relationship. The product is one side, relationship is another side.

And the thing is also, if you're like developing your product even further, like if there is a new feature released, they're not perfect anymore.

[Kristi] (24:36 - 25:27)

I mentioned that, right? Like, so there's no way we're all, not we're all in SaaS. I don't know.

For those of us in SaaS, right? Like you're building and innovating often. And so many folks, they follow agile, right?

Let's just say minimally once a month, your product has changed. Make sure that your customer understands how to use that. Now it might not be new functionality, right?

It could be a new feature. It could be like, it could be something small, but if it changes their workflow, if it changes how they do something, it helps drive efficiency. There's value to that.

So even though your customer might be using a lot of your software strategically, helping enhance their workflow to drive efficiency and productivity just by small feature enhancements adds value. So there should always-ish be something to talk about when it comes to product.

[Stino] (25:27 - 26:22)

Yeah, 100%. And now I think, came to think of it, I had a conversation with a customer literally yesterday. I was also asking them, like you said, like, what are just the business goals?

Listen to their business goals, whether that they raise money or not, just also, I'm like, Hey, what is the journey looking like as a business for the coming six months? And then yesterday, like they said, like, Hey, we're building out his entire work field training. And we don't think that Will would like be able to help with it.

And I was like, fuck that, we can, we can. Like that, even though that the numbers say that they're super good, they get every value out of it, which was hearing that they're going into that other direction, just like talking the banter that we had with that customer, give me another opportunity. So it's a little bit of a full circle moment that indeed like relay on the relationship and people that say that you can't be friends or can't be personal with your clients.

[Kristi] (26:26 - 26:39)

I have customers that have been some of my best friends. I have customers, I have old customers from years and years and years ago that I still talk to, you know, I think it varies for everybody. The level, I think you lean into the relationship your customers want to have with you.

[Stino] (26:39 - 26:44)

Yeah, 100%. Like, and I will ask that question for our next episode. I will just submit the question.

[Kristi] (26:44 - 26:49)

Okay. You submit your questions and then we'll, can we, that would actually be a good one.

[Stino] (26:49 - 26:51)

Can you be friends with your CSMs?

[Kristi] (26:51 - 26:57)

All right, so, you know, do you think we answered the question again? I'm like, sir, I'm really, I think we did.

[Stino] (26:58 - 27:06)

Let me, I, well, I think the main, I think we did like, first of all, like don't be disappointed whatsoever. Like I think we started with that.

[Kristi] (27:07 - 27:17)

Yeah. Don't feel like there's not, that you can't bring value. I think it's like, right.

Think, think outside of the product also. I think it was a big recommendation there or beyond the product.

[Stino] (27:19 - 28:14)

Thinking that you would be disappointing already means that you already are doing a lot for that customer. So if you, if you say like, I'm always lost when he asked me to do improve off if I want to share best practices, the fact that you already go above and beyond to share best practices. The fact that you already go above and beyond to do those best practices, give you already the best value out of your relationship, because that, that means that your customer knows that they can rely on you for literally everything.

So, and then take really Christie's advice to heart, rely on that relationship. Use that as a tipping point because the client, the customer at the end of the day, relies on you so much because they've been asking you those best practices, those ideas. So then tip over the scale like a real Libra and use the relationship to your advantage.

[Kristi] (28:15 - 29:03)

See, I think we gave great advice this episode. Um, I think there was a lot of good stuff in this one. So hopefully people can go and listen and unpack this a bit.

I'm excited for our next episode, but for those of you who have not gone and listened to the first two, I'm just going to recommend that you go back, listen to the first two episodes. This is episode three. We're going to keep releasing new content.

So we ask that you go continue to submit questions, come send an emails, comments on LinkedIn, submit it in the, in the type form, whatever method works best for you to get your questions to Stino and myself. We're going to make sure to tackle those in some of our upcoming episodes. It looks like we continue to do one question per episode.

So we're going to continue to do our best. Maybe we'll be able to fit into sometime doubtful, but it's, you know, this was a great conversation today. Super excited to see what comes next.

[Stino] (29:04 - 29:18)

Yes. 100% for everyone listening in. Thank you so much for being this loyal audience.

And as Kristi said, like shoot any question that you have with a pigeon carrier, pigeon, smoke signal, literally everything. And we can't wait to catch you at another episode of the customer success hotline.

[Voiceover] (29:29 - 29:48)

You've been listening to the customer success hotline produced by lifetime value media and a member of the lifetime value media network, visit the show at lifetime value.link slash CSH for links to each episode, show notes and instructions on how to submit your burning question.