Just stand up | Jeff Moss | Ep. 104

[Dillon] (0:00 - 0:14)

All right. What's up, Lifers, and welcome to The Daily Standup by Lifetime Value, where we're giving you fresh new customer success ideas every single day. I've got my man, JP here.

JP, do you want to say hi?

[JP] (0:15 - 0:16)

Vita Valorem, my friend.

[Dillon] (0:19 - 0:22)

And we've got Rob here. Rob, do you want to say hi?

[Rob] (0:23 - 0:25)

Shiver me timbers, Lifers.

[Dillon] (0:25 - 0:33)

Of course. Of course. And we've got Jeff here.

Jeff, please don't hurt yourself trying to keep up. Can you say hi, please?

[Jeff] (0:34 - 0:36)

Just trying to be here for this pirate party, so.

[Dillon] (0:36 - 0:56)

Oh, no. And I am your host. My name is Dillon Young.

Jeff, despite what you just did, I'm still going to let you continue on the show. Would you like to introduce yourself, please?

[Jeff] (0:56 - 1:24)

Jeff Moss, originally from Chicago, living here in Utah now, been into tech scene a while. Started off at an early stage startup, building out customer success. Did consulting for six plus years after that, looking under the hood of 30, 40 different SaaS companies, trying to figure out how to keep customers there, how to figure out how to drive more value, expansion, things like that.

Currently leading a success team at a company called Rever, and then also do consulting and launching a business on the side, all in the same thing.

[Dillon] (1:25 - 1:31)

Lordy. And that's why you haven't had any time to decorate behind you. Yes, yes.

I got to keep it black. Nothing.

[Jeff] (1:31 - 1:33)

Not even a plant. So, yeah.

[Dillon] (1:33 - 1:49)

Yeah. If you're like Rob, you just kill those immediately. Yeah.

Jeff, anyway, sounds like you're busy and it sounds like you've got a lot to say. So you know what we're doing here. We ask one single question of every single guest we have, and that is what is on your mind when it comes to customer success?

Why don't you tell us what that is?

[Jeff] (1:50 - 2:58)

Yeah. So there's really two things on my mind. One is, do we actually understand what retention and expansion are, what we got to do about those things to actually be able to achieve them?

I think the way we framed it has made it so it's very difficult for us to actually action it. And then I think you see this on LinkedIn all the time. People have keyed into customer value, customer results, whatever those things are that you have to achieve.

But we've stopped at saying, hey, get results. Oh, great. I think of the old Kevin James joke.

I don't know if you guys would like his comedy, but he had one where he was trying to learn how to water ski. And he said, you get behind the boat and say, hit it. And you go up and you're down.

Okay, hit it again, up and you're down. And what do the people in the boat say to you? They say, just stand up.

And you go, oh, is that all I have to do? I thought I was supposed to be dragged to the water with my mouth open. But if I just stand up, obviously.

So I think there's an opportunity for us to really, from things that I've learned and things I'm continuing to try to work on, how do you actually get customers to results? How do you actually need to rethink about how customers expand and stop focusing so much on retention? And how do you answer those questions for yourself, not only at your current company, but wherever you will go in customer success?

[Dillon] (2:59 - 3:18)

So you buried the lead there with one of the last things you said, which was, and stop focusing on retention, which feels like the real, let's keep this going, the shot across the bow of what a lot of CS groups are doing. Yes. Tell me more about that before I let the guys loose.

[Jeff] (3:18 - 4:04)

Yeah, so here's an example. If you think about retention, then you're always going to say, expansions as on the back burner. Hey, let's just get the renewal.

And then we'll try and get the expansion. Even if sales zones that they say, just focus on getting that renewal and then get the expansion going. The problem is, if you do that, you will not actually get the customer to success.

And you will not only not get the expansion, but you may not even get the renewal. If you shift to say, what should the customer actually try to achieve? And how can we actually get them on it and get them on that pathway?

And what should they do? Not what could they do with our software? Then you could actually have a judgment call.

Are they doing the things necessary to get results? Are they actually achieving those results? And then that's also going to make it so that expansions actually happen all the way to the customer lifestyle cycle.

I'm working with a company right now. We're expanding customers and onboarding.

[Dillon] (4:05 - 4:05)

Yeah.

[Jeff] (4:06 - 4:12)

Sales just got off the phone with them. If you focus on that, then you're good. If I've expanded them and onboarding, I already know that I'm getting more value for the customer.

[Dillon] (4:13 - 4:29)

So the distinction is, we've got to focus more on the tactical and less about just telling them to stand up behind the boat. Because that's not helpful. Okay.

Rob, jump in here. As a fellow consultant, would you like to tear Jeff's theory down or stand beside him?

[Jeff] (4:29 - 4:32)

Please do. No, I'm kidding. Please do it.

Come after me. Come after me.

[Rob] (4:33 - 4:42)

Jeff, I'm going to give you a line. You can take it. You can use it.

Customer success is about the journey, not the destination. Oh, okay.

[Dillon] (4:42 - 4:45)

Yeah, I guess. I don't think you made that up, Rob. I'm just going to tell you.

I don't know if you know.

[Rob] (4:45 - 5:38)

No one said that before. I've never heard anybody say it. What I actually...

So what this reminds me of is actually... I have a friend. He started a weight loss company, weight loss coaching.

Fitness and nutrition, actually. It's not weight loss. But basically, what he said is, one of the big differences in our paradigm is, we don't focus on losing weight.

We focus on eating the right foods. Some people hear that and go, isn't that the same thing, basically? He's like, no.

Because if you just focus on losing weight, you're just watching the number on the scale. That's going to go up and down based on a ton of different factors. And you're too focused.

You have too much tunnel vision about the outcome that you're not thinking about the actual lifestyle that supports that and the steps that support that. The other thing I'm thinking of, JP, I think we spoke about this once about... We were talking about the book.

You guys know the book, Start With Why. I was like, we should write a sequel that's continue with how. Yes, focus on how.

Something like that.

[JP] (5:40 - 5:41)

That's a book that...

[Rob] (5:41 - 5:42)

Don't take that. We're going to do that.

[Dillon] (5:43 - 5:45)

A beautiful line. All right. I got to cut it out.

But yeah.

[Rob] (5:45 - 6:01)

I think about the book, The Checklist Manifesto. If you guys ever read that one, it's my favorite book. Focus on how.

And it's the playbooks that support the outcome that matter more than the outcome itself. Because the outcome will be there if you take the right steps in between. Well, I'll give you an example of that.

[Jeff] (6:01 - 6:36)

When I go into a company, I don't even have to see their retention numbers and expansion numbers to know what they are. I can look at their playbook. What are you doing?

I can tell what your outcomes are going to be just by how you're interacting with the customers, what your standards are, what your processes are. So if I know that, then I can be much more consistent in what I deliver from an expansion and a retention standpoint, if I have the right inputs about eating the right things. And I think those trainers, to your friend's example, they have standards.

They make sure that the customer is achieving those standards of diet or exercise, whatever these things are, and they will get the outcome if they implement those standards.

[Dillon] (6:38 - 6:39)

JP, what do you think?

[JP] (6:41 - 7:47)

I, for one, am an expert in losing weight and eating the right things. I feel very qualified to speak on this particular topic. So thank you for bringing this to my arena, so to speak.

What I'd like to say around this is that, in fact, I do know a lot about what to do to make this happen, the losing weight. I'm just learning customer success. I've only been in a couple of years.

I think you hit the nail on the head, Rob, was to continue with how. I think that, Jeff, I'm going to assume, which can be not the best thing to do, but you're really helping these leaders to have the right strategies so that the people, not underneath them, but so that the people can play the supporting role effectively, the rest of the people, what I mean. So I think that what sometimes happens and where I can feel caught is somebody says, we need retention or we need expansion.

And they put the pressure on and then it's like, go out there and do it.

[Dillon] (7:49 - 7:54)

So often it's within the quarter. They want you to do it within that quarter.

[JP] (7:56 - 8:38)

So then it starts to steer. I may have a focus like, hey, I know if I do the right things, that should lead to a very productive relationship in terms of revenue. But when people are like, we're focused on this, we need to hit this metric.

I'm not going to say I'm against that, but I think that's one of the challenges, especially can I push back? I don't think like that. It's tough because again, I'm not in the leadership position.

That's a whole nother topic, but how would I get a seat at the table to say a phrase Rob should be able to say, maybe we can do it this way.

[Dillon] (8:39 - 8:55)

Jeff, I want you to close this out because JP said, can I push back there? And you excitedly nodded your head like, yes, absolutely. You should.

I made a joke about getting kicked out the door, but I want to hear why did you respond so so vehemently in the yes category?

[Jeff] (8:57 - 9:49)

So when someone says, hey, we got to get our retention up 5%, that's the equivalent of saying just stand up. Well, obviously not 5%. Hey, sales, why don't you double your goal this quarter and hit it?

If you could, you would. So you get the retention expansion you deserve. The methodology I focus on is instead of thinking about what customers could do with their product, focus on what they should do with your product.

Once you lay out that expansion pathway, what is the outcomes they should focus on? What are the process changes they need to make? What are the products they should be using to achieve those things?

Then you can start telling a story to your leadership. If we implemented these things, this would be the better retention we would deserve and we would achieve. We're changing the inputs to get a better output.

So you're pushing back with an actual theory, an opinion, an angle, leverage with your leadership. If you have nothing, no leverage, then of course, I'll get the next monkey that can come in and do the role there. If you can come in there and actually go after it, then you can make it happen.

[Dillon] (9:50 - 10:05)

I love it, Jeff. That is our time. I love what you brought to the table.

A good analogy, Kevin James water skiing analogy. We got some pirate talk in there. This was a good one, but we do have to say goodbye for now.

I would love to have you back in the future, though.

[Jeff] (10:05 - 10:08)

All right. Happy to come back. Thanks, everybody.

Thanks, Jeff.

[Voiceover] (10:12 - 10:43)

You've been listening to The Daily Standup by Lifetime Value. Please note that the views expressed in these conversations are attributed only to those individuals on this recording and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of their respective employers. For all inquiries, please reach out via email to Dillon at LifetimeValueMedia.com.

Find us on YouTube at Lifetime Value and find us on the socials at Lifetime Value Media. Until next time.